Curse

explodemyheart · Apr 22, 2007, 07:15 AM // 07:15

I just noticed in several places today that in hard mode I would end up making about 2x the money in the same exact explorable than if I did it in normal. What gives?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

unfortunetly we can't expect people who get their jollys by exploting a system so they can feal "ub3r l33t" to have the ability to be respectfull of other people when attempts to fix the economy effect their ability to screw it up.

on behalf of those of us who have fun playing the game, instead of haveing fun by takeing advantage; and as someone who apreciates a dev team that interacts with the players to silicit ideas - i will appologie for all the pree-teen losers here who can't express themselves without launching personal attacks at others.

So wait... you mean... you're talking about yourself, too?

Seriously, folks. It goes both ways. A mod just got through closing this thread, cleaning it up, then posting a warning and you feel the need to come in here, reprimand people for being jerks, and then turn around and act like one yourself?

I'm sorry that people can't talk to Gaile about the issue without resorting to personal attacks, as, unfortunately, she's just doing her job. But the only people acting like asses are most certainly not the people against the update.

Psychic Watch · Apr 22, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

As the value of gold increases, the solo farmer will be able to buy almost the same things on the market anyway. They make less gold, but items will sell for less as well. Only static costs are going to significantly rise for them (skills, 15k for armor) The drops sound more like 1/4th instead of 1/8th so soloing vermin isn't a bad way to make money compared to groups, it's just not so amazingly better than parties anymore.

The part in bold is the problem, as several people have stated.

It may be the case that the numeric price for most items may go down, as gold becomes more valuable. However, if the corresponding amount of wealth also decreases (since fewer overall items are dropping), then there is no net change in the actual value - the poor stay poor, the rich stay rich.

Worse still, as you stated, static costs end up being higher than they were before, since gold is now worth more.

kumarshah · Apr 22, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Maybe someone can correct me, but how is the loot-scaling of ho-hum whites/blues, collector items, and gold really affect hardcore farmers, or even casual farmers? Especially since Hard Mode gives such greater rewards on the whole. You are still able to farm, in fact, with mobs gimped in Normal Mode, you can farm almost as good as the "good ol days". They just made it so that Hard Mode and overall adventuring will reap better rewards. That, to me, rewards the average Joe even more, which to me is a win/win.

But again, please correct me.

You solo farmed in hard mode? Good for you. Guess what an average Joe won't be able to do that.

And the only solo farming in normal mode is limited to high-end areas were gold, ectos, shards, etc drop.

Hard core farmers are not going to have any issues. Ectos will still drop normally and they will still make 100k a day.

I farmed Hydras outside Augury Rock. I farmed Vermin. I was satisfied with what I made. Farming them now is useless.

arcanemacabre · Apr 22, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumarshah

You solo farmed in hard mode? Good for you. Guess what an average Joe won't be able to do that.

And the only solo farming in normal mode is limited to high-end areas were gold, ectos, shards, etc drop.

Hard core farmers are not going to have any issues. Ectos will still drop normally and they will still make 100k a day.

I farmed Hydras outside Augury Rock. I farmed Vermin. I was satisfied with what I made. Farming them now is useless.

Wait, where did I say anything about solo farming hard mode? No, I'm saying normal, everyday, adventuring - in hard mode. That's right. Full party, go out and kill stuff. Guess what: you get good drops. It's not as fast as farming vermin, or hydras, but the rewards are greater, which means you make about as much. The average Joe can surely do this.

Like you, I used to farm Vermin, back about a month and a half after Factions was released and the run was more public. I also farmed hydra, minotaurs, trolls, ettins, pongmei, etc. I have also farmed UW a little, and that wears on me. The other spots are more fun, and I see where this "casual" or "average" farmer ideal comes from.

I also understand that farming those areas now, solo, reaps fewer rewards. My point is - Big Hairy Deal. My point is, it is now possible to make as much money, as fast as before, by simply exploring and killing things in a team - in hard mode. Now it's much more fun, and feels like I'm actually playing, instead of mindlessly smacking 1,2,3,4 to make money. What's more, is that you can actually still farm your vermin, minotaurs, hydras, etc, and even better than before because they're dumbed down. You can still have your fun, if that's why you farmed, and you can still make your money, if that's why you farmed. Why else is there to farm, I ask you?

explodemyheart · Apr 22, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Wait, where did I say anything about solo farming hard mode? No, I'm saying normal, everyday, adventuring - in hard mode. That's right. Full party, go out and kill stuff. Guess what: you get good drops. It's not as fast as farming vermin, or hydras, but the rewards are greater, which means you make about as much. The average Joe can surely do this.

Like you, I used to farm Vermin, back about a month and a half after Factions was released and the run was more public. I also farmed hydra, minotaurs, trolls, ettins, pongmei, etc. I have also farmed UW a little, and that wears on me. The other spots are more fun, and I see where this "casual" or "average" farmer ideal comes from.

I also understand that farming those areas now, solo, reaps fewer rewards. My point is - Big Hairy Deal. My point is, it is now possible to make as much money, as fast as before, by simply exploring and killing things in a team - in hard mode. Now it's much more fun, and feels like I'm actually playing, instead of mindlessly smacking 1,2,3,4 to make money. What's more, is that you can actually still farm your vermin, minotaurs, hydras, etc, and even better than before because they're dumbed down. You can still have your fun, if that's why you farmed, and you can still make your money, if that's why you farmed. Why else is there to farm, I ask you?

If you really did farm vermin, I wonder how you can suggest the things that you do. Either that or you made very, very terrible money over long periods of time.

You're right. Going out in a group to kill things in hard mode, you can make decent drops. However, for your idea to even be really worth anything, you need to clear a large portion of an entire area. After clearing an entire area + the money for vanquishing everything for about 1-2 hours of work (depending what area you're in) and you've made 2-3k... that in no way at all compares to, for instance, farming vermin (before this update).

In an average run (I don't farm vermin anymore, haven't for months) I made 3k, sometimes 3.5k. A single run would take me about 15-20 minutes, depending on how ADD I was at the time.

You do the math. 3-3.5k per 15 minutes, or 2-3k every 1-2 hours.

Since I know that, depending on your build, vermin farming may have taken a little longer than before the initial NF update, I'll instead compare this with slave farming. My runs were roughly 12 minutes long, give or take a minute or two + maybe 1 minute to travel to the zone. I usually made somewhere around 2.5k.

So again, you do the math. 2.5k per 12 minutes, or 2-3k every 1-2 hours.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but suggesting that you can make the same amount of money through normal play in hard mode than you could in the same amount of time solo farming is absolutely, positively incorrect.

mr_groovy · Apr 22, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Well I have experienced farming first hand Post patch update, and must say the rate of Gold items to drop is a bit better in Hard Mode then when I was farming the area. And about merching whites, etc, I din't farm for merching stuff to the trader before the update either. It was a nice bonus to make 1 or 2K. But the rares are the priority. I haven't been to UW yet post patch. But after hard mode release I couldn't break even. Oh well I will check that out Tonight, europe doesn't have favor at this time anyways ^^.

@Gaile

You even give your opinion, concerns on a saturday evening/ sunday morning. That's shows dedication for the community, because those aren't your work hours by a long shot, I hope

So I would like to thank you for that, and I hope the Quality of the Posts from other people will be more constructive.

arcanemacabre · Apr 22, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

If you really did farm vermin, I wonder how you can suggest the things that you do. Either that or you made very, very terrible money over long periods of time.

You're right. Going out in a group to kill things in hard mode, you can make decent drops. However, for your idea to even be really worth anything, you need to clear a large portion of an entire area. After clearing an entire area + the money for vanquishing everything for about 1-2 hours of work (depending what area you're in) and you've made 2-3k... that in no way at all compares to, for instance, farming vermin (before this update).

In an average run (I don't farm vermin anymore, haven't for months) I made 3k, sometimes 3.5k. A single run would take me about 15-20 minutes, depending on how ADD I was at the time.

You do the math. 3-3.5k per 15 minutes, or 2-3k every 1-2 hours.

Since I know that, depending on your build, vermin farming may have taken a little longer than before the initial NF update, I'll instead compare this with slave farming. My runs were roughly 12 minutes long, give or take a minute or two + maybe 1 minute to travel to the zone. I usually made somewhere around 2.5k.

So again, you do the math. 2.5k per 12 minutes, or 2-3k every 1-2 hours.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but suggesting that you can make the same amount of money through normal play in hard mode than you could in the same amount of time solo farming is absolutely, positively incorrect.

Well, I agree with your numbers on Vermin Farming, that's about accurate. However, I disagree with your numbers on hard mode exploring. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but Vanquishing Pongmei Valley, which took about an hour, netted me around 3k in standard drops/cash, and on top of that 3-4 gold items, several purples (I think around 7-8), and two Elite Tomes, which I could've sold for 3-6k each. That was just Pongmei, a relatively easy-going area.

Again, maybe I'm just lucky, but it seems that with the increased droprates of purples and golds in hard mode, along with certain drops that can only be found in hard mode, more than make up for the several little drops you're not getting from solo farming. That is my point. I don't know, maybe some tests are in order, since we at least agree on the average vermin farming rate - 3k/15min. or 12k/hr.

Prometheus lst · Apr 22, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

As an Addendum to my previous post referencing new trade options, i.e. Bazaars, and Auction houses....

Why has this been a constant HOT SUBJECT of major controversy among SO MANY players among your customers for SOOOOOO LONG now...and yet...

It has NEVER been addressed by ANET in any Dev-Comments...???

If you think that it's a bad idea, give us some reasons WHY you think it's a bad idea. If you CAN'T add an automatic trade function to the game....tell us and explain WHY. If you don't WANT to add that functionality to the game {for whatever virtuous, yet extremely misguided reason} then....once again, tell us that and explain why.

That subject is one of the most griped about issues IN THE GAME.......and yet all we hear from the "Constantly listening Devs....." is crickets.....{sigh}

Holla?
-Prometheus.

rohlfinator · Apr 22, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I gotta say, as much as I dislike farming, blackbird71 made some excellent points in this post.

It seems that a lot of the criticism of this update stems from the belief that farming is the only way to make money. While I don't hold that particular opinion, maybe ArenaNet should look into that issue and consider giving casual players more opportunities to earn money in other ways than farming.

On a different note: keep in mind that the players who post on this forum may not be a completely accurate representation of the player base as a whole. This forum in general is filled with more "hardcore" players, but Anet needs to consider the opinions of everyone who plays the game, not just the vocal ones.

mr_groovy · Apr 22, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus lst

As an Addendum to my previous post referencing new trade options, i.e. Bazaars, and Auction houses....

Why has this been a constant HOT SUBJECT of major controversy among SO MANY players among your customers for SOOOOOO LONG now...and yet...

It has NEVER been addressed by ANET in any Dev-Comments...???

If you think that it's a bad idea, give us some reasons WHY you think it's a bad idea. If you CAN'T add an automatic trade function to the game....tell us and explain WHY. If you don't WANT to add that functionality to the game {for whatever virtuous, yet extremely misguided reason} then....once again, tell us that and explain why.

That subject is one of the most griped about issues IN THE GAME.......and yet all we hear from the "Constantly listening Devs....." is crickets.....{sigh}

Holla?
-Prometheus.

Probly a: Hard, and big time development
b: All those trades has to be stored on data on new servers >
money investment.

If you check the official guildwarswiki site you can see on developments for the near future a better trade system ^^.

Auction house == less power trading

explodemyheart · Apr 22, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Well, I agree with your numbers on Vermin Farming, that's about accurate. However, I disagree with your numbers on hard mode exploring. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but Vanquishing Pongmei Valley, which took about an hour, netted me around 3k in standard drops/cash, and on top of that 3-4 gold items, several purples (I think around 7-8), and two Elite Tomes, which I could've sold for 3-6k each. That was just Pongmei, a relatively easy-going area.

Again, maybe I'm just lucky, but it seems that with the increased droprates of purples and golds in hard mode, along with certain drops that can only be found in hard mode, more than make up for the several little drops you're not getting from solo farming. That is my point. I don't know, maybe some tests are in order, since we at least agree on the average vermin farming rate - 3k/15min. or 12k/hr.

I don't know, maybe some testing is in order or something. Maybe either you've been lucky with your drops, or I've been unlucky. I actually cleared Pongmei Valley about an hour ago and by the time I was done, I had about 2.1k in gold. All of the purples and golds I'd had dropped for me were nothing I could sell for anything to make it worth the time to try and sell it, so I merchanted them. Every single locked chest I opened were purples (4 in total) and every single one of my lockpicks broke. They were all bad items, nothing I could have sold to anybody to even recover the price of the lockpicks.

I'm not saying that I'm not still making okay money. The money I make for any single period of time in hard mode now nets me more money that I would have had playing the same thing normally before the update, so I won't scoff at that. I just know that I'm not making, comparatively, the same amount in the same time as if I had been solo farming.

Is that bad? For me, right now... no, not really. But if I were trying to save up money to afford something I wanted, I can see how it'd be a bit frustrating to yield less result for more work.

ElinoraNeSangre · Apr 22, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Another random thought about loot scaling; why exempt all dyes from scaling? Would it really hurt anything to let the "common" dyes fit into that so that people in groups still get more?

(was thinking about it while running around killing stuff

)

eremos · Apr 22, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Meh .. they force us to sell to players to make money but give us no decent means to do so (you try getting your message heard in LA district 1). We need an auction house!

arcanemacabre · Apr 22, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

Is that bad? For me, right now... no, not really. But if I were trying to save up money to afford something I wanted, I can see how it'd be a bit frustrating to yield less result for more work.

Well, yeah, that is a good point. I guess the bit of farming I did before just left a bad taste in my mouth. I really wanted better ways of making the money I made while farming, but be able to have fun doing it, ya know? I figured that Anet was trying to address that way of thinking, and by adding (back) the keyless chests, and introducing hard mode with higher chances of good loot for a group, they were heading in the right direction.

I also did see how some parts of farming can be fun, like watching hordes of enemies fall at your feet, and trying/testing out that ingenious build designed to exploit the weakness of a static foe. What Anet has done may not be perfect, but it does seem to address those many different play styles, without letting any of it get way out of hand or abused. It's a compromise. I like compromises.

StormLord · Apr 22, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psychic Watch

It may be the case that the numeric price for most items may go down, as gold becomes more valuable. However, if the corresponding amount of wealth also decreases (since fewer overall items are dropping), then there is no net change in the actual value - the poor stay poor, the rich stay rich.

Worse still, as you stated, static costs end up being higher than they were before, since gold is now worth more.

The "poor" in this case are the people who don't solo farm. Since this doesn't affect them, they will not see a decrease in wealth. It is just the rich solo farmers who will become relatively poorer.

eremos · Apr 22, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Without the merchant being the primary source of income we *really* need traders or an auction house for most things even if it only allows "perfect" mods.

trouble with this is what if you get a vampiric (perfect) sword of fortitude (+29) with 15^50 inscription? Would it be considered perfect? Or would you be forced to salvage the perfect bits before auction at the risk of destroying the rest?

An auction system would become flooded with crap without some restriction on what's tradeable, but how restrictive should it be?

reetkever · Apr 22, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Maybe someone can correct me, but how is the loot-scaling of ho-hum whites/blues, collector items, and gold really affect hardcore farmers, or even casual farmers? Especially since Hard Mode gives such greater rewards on the whole. You are still able to farm, in fact, with mobs gimped in Normal Mode, you can farm almost as good as the "good ol days". They just made it so that Hard Mode and overall adventuring will reap better rewards. That, to me, rewards the average Joe even more, which to me is a win/win.

But again, please correct me.

Well casual farmers AIM for the blue/white/collectors items.

Expert farmers do hard and troublesome stuff, for great rewards (ecto's, for example), while casual farmers do 1/2 quick farming runs to obtain the 1K they need to buy a skill.

Now, casual farmers have no way to obtain cash. Unless they improve to expert farming, but learning how to expert farm is quite expensive as well *remembers the over a 100 failed UW runs trying to learn it. Over a 100K wasted just to get the hang of it.)

And most casual farmers don't even WANT to farm long/troublesome things. They just want to do 1 or 2 quick farm runs to buy little stuff. Maybe more quick farm runs to slowly - but surely collect for 15K armors, etc.

Even non-farmers do small farm runs from time to time to buy new runes, hero weapons, skills etc. They don't have a choice, cause everything is so darned expensive.

Now, the only thing casual gamers can do, is get a party and clear entire area's. They're now forced to do more grinding a farmer would ever do, and for less reward. Not quite fair, is it?

arcanemacabre · Apr 22, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Now, the only thing casual gamers can do, is get a party and clear entire area's. They're now forced to do more grinding a farmer would ever do, and for less reward. Not quite fair, is it?

So how is it that repetitive, casual farming considered less grinding than exploring an area with a party? That is truely a misnomer if I ever did see one. You don't have to clear the whole thing, heck, consider actually questing, you get rewards for that, too. Just about everything you do in GW gives you rewards, the only real complaint is that the rewards aren't high enough, and thus causes people to want to farm.

I feel that the average Joe player should be in the spotlight, with extra rewards for team play. Do you honestly think that copy-pasting a build and mindlessly smacking the keyboard for hours on end gives you every right to have more money than "average Joe" non-farmer who just logs in to have fun with his buddies, explore and quest around, etc for the same amount of time? Why should anyone have to be subjected to mindless grind just to "keep up with the Jones's"?

By not eliminating farming, they allow players to choose what they want to do with their time - fantastic. By eliminating the need for farming just to get some of the nicer things (including more necessities like skills), they give everyone more time to do what they want - incredible!

An old argument farmers used to use to excuse what they do is boredom. There simply wasn't anything left for them to do but grind for more crap. Enter Hard Mode. The answer to every farmers wish except that seemingly innate need to farm. That part always confuddles me.

explodemyheart · Apr 22, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I feel that the average Joe player should be in the spotlight, with extra rewards for team play. Do you honestly think that copy-pasting a build and mindlessly smacking the keyboard for hours on end gives you every right to have more money than "average Joe" non-farmer who just logs in to have fun with his buddies, explore and quest around, etc for the same amount of time? Why should anyone have to be subjected to mindless grind just to "keep up with the Jones's"?

Copy-pasting a build and hitting 1-2-3-4 over and over again is not necessarily harder, but it is still work and it is still time consuming.

Person 1 chooses to do this over and over and over to reap the rewards.
Person 2 chooses not to, thus doing quests and missions and general exploring.
Person 1 could easily take the route of person 2.
Person 2 could easily take the route of person 1.
It doesn't matter, they both have different goals (or at the very least, a different opinion of how to reach the same goal).

Since anybody can mindlessly mash buttons, I'd say that it's not unfair that the person who chooses to spend the time solo farming gets the reward for choosing to do so because person 2 can do what person 1 is doing.

In the real world person 1 decides to get a job lifting heavy brick day in, day out for 12 hours in the hot sun.
Person 2 decides to get a part time job washing dishes at a restaurant and then volunteer part time at a local homeless shelter.

Both people are doing work. One is doing more arduous work, they want to be able to reap the rewards of it. The other person is doing things more along the lines of enjoyment (working a little, conversing with people) understanding that if they worked harder, they could have more money, but they don't care because they're doing what they enjoy. Person 2 isn't doing the same job as person 1. It would be completely unfair for the government to step in and give everyone the same exact payment regardless of hours worked or effort spent.

Of course this is not the real world, but the same concept still applies. If someone takes the time to work hard, they want to (and should be able to) reap the rewards. After all, the person who does not solo farm chooses not to, for whatever reason.

Synles Chyld · Apr 22, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

the aution house system for FFX1 was prolly the overall best ive seen used in an mmo u had to pay a fee to use it u could on put so many (like a stak for stakable items) in at a time in each group and if they dint sell in such an such time u get ur items bak and have to give it another shot in the aution house there was seperate catagories for wpns and items an such u just put ur price u want for it and if someone wanted to buy it they bought it and when u next chekd the house out if u sold u got paid if u dint then u got ur items bak or w/e ...

anything even close to this aution house sytem would greatly GREATLY improve our trading economy market wise in GW not to mention it also provides yet another gold sink in which to use up some of the inflated gold ingame thus helpin with the gold influx problem ....

PLEASE ARENA NET GIVE US AN AUCTION HOUSE/SHOP SYTEM FOR GW PLEASE!!!